Discussion:
and in the NO corner...
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Jack Campin
2014-09-12 11:09:28 UTC
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Fred the Shred's bank.
The folks who brought you the Deepwater Horizon spill.
20,000 Orange marchers.

Just the folks you'd trust to run a country, aren't they?

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Richard Tobin
2014-09-12 11:15:09 UTC
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Post by Jack Campin
20,000 Orange marchers.
Just the folks you'd trust to run a country, aren't they?
I think we have much more chance of religious extremists running the
country if we're independent.

-- Richard
Alan Smaill
2014-09-12 11:55:34 UTC
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Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Jack Campin
20,000 Orange marchers.
Just the folks you'd trust to run a country, aren't they?
I think we have much more chance of religious extremists running the
country if we're independent.
I've heard others say that;
I don't get it myself, what makes you think that?

On a possibly related note, why was the law on abortion made a reserved
matter in the devolution legislation? -- the Scottish parliament
currently does not have the right to legislate on that.
Post by Richard Tobin
-- Richard
--
Alan Smaill
Richard Tobin
2014-09-12 12:18:14 UTC
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Post by Alan Smaill
Post by Richard Tobin
I think we have much more chance of religious extremists running the
country if we're independent.
I've heard others say that;
I don't get it myself, what makes you think that?
Because there are more religious extremists here. In all the time I
lived in England, I never saw or even heard of an Orange Order march.
Post by Alan Smaill
On a possibly related note, why was the law on abortion made a reserved
matter in the devolution legislation? -- the Scottish parliament
currently does not have the right to legislate on that.
Presumably for fear that it would become a divisive issue because of
the greater number of Roman Catholics and other conservative
Christians. And indeed, the Catholic church wants abortion law
devolved so that it has a better chance of imposing its beliefs on us.

-- Richard
Alan Smaill
2014-09-12 16:32:40 UTC
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Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Alan Smaill
Post by Richard Tobin
I think we have much more chance of religious extremists running the
country if we're independent.
I've heard others say that;
I don't get it myself, what makes you think that?
Because there are more religious extremists here. In all the time I
lived in England, I never saw or even heard of an Orange Order march.
They're not ruling the country, though.
No Ian Paisley figure here, and the old Orange Conservative vote
has pretty much gone these days.

There are more fundamentalist Islam characters further south, on
the other hand (not that they are ruling the country either).
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Alan Smaill
On a possibly related note, why was the law on abortion made a reserved
matter in the devolution legislation? -- the Scottish parliament
currently does not have the right to legislate on that.
Presumably for fear that it would become a divisive issue because of
the greater number of Roman Catholics and other conservative
Christians. And indeed, the Catholic church wants abortion law
devolved so that it has a better chance of imposing its beliefs on us.
Possibly, possibly.
But unlikely that that would come about, IMHO.
Post by Richard Tobin
-- Richard
--
Alan Smaill
Murff
2014-09-12 13:37:07 UTC
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Post by Alan Smaill
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Jack Campin
20,000 Orange marchers.
Just the folks you'd trust to run a country, aren't they?
I think we have much more chance of religious extremists running the
country if we're independent.
I've heard others say that;
I don't get it myself, what makes you think that?
Wee Alex' belief that every single one of his fairy stories will come
true. Including the ones about sovereign mandates dictating EU and NATO
accession rules. And the idea that any rUK politician seen to be giving
him an easy ride wouldn't be on the dole after the next election.

If that lot isn't religious extremism I'm not sure what is.
--
Murff...
Windmill
2014-09-13 02:03:49 UTC
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Post by Murff
Post by Alan Smaill
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Jack Campin
20,000 Orange marchers.
Just the folks you'd trust to run a country, aren't they?
I think we have much more chance of religious extremists running the
country if we're independent.
I've heard others say that;
I don't get it myself, what makes you think that?
Wee Alex' belief that every single one of his fairy stories will come
true. Including the ones about sovereign mandates dictating EU and NATO
accession rules. And the idea that any rUK politician seen to be giving
him an easy ride wouldn't be on the dole after the next election.
If that lot isn't religious extremism I'm not sure what is.
There are some odd things going on. Such as an ad on TV which somehow
had YES popping up on several of the usual quickly changed scenes, once
even 4 YESes in a square pattern.

Coincidence? Maybe. I think the ad was something about Disney; why
would they care?
--
Windmill, ***@NoneHome.com Use t m i l l
J.R.R. Tolkien:- @ S c o t s h o m e . c o m
All that is gold does not glister / Not all who wander are lost
Derek F
2014-09-13 19:24:18 UTC
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Post by Windmill
Post by Murff
Post by Alan Smaill
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Jack Campin
20,000 Orange marchers.
Just the folks you'd trust to run a country, aren't they?
I think we have much more chance of religious extremists running the
country if we're independent.
I've heard others say that;
I don't get it myself, what makes you think that?
Wee Alex' belief that every single one of his fairy stories will come
true. Including the ones about sovereign mandates dictating EU and NATO
accession rules. And the idea that any rUK politician seen to be giving
him an easy ride wouldn't be on the dole after the next election.
If that lot isn't religious extremism I'm not sure what is.
There are some odd things going on. Such as an ad on TV which somehow
had YES popping up on several of the usual quickly changed scenes, once
even 4 YESes in a square pattern.
Coincidence? Maybe. I think the ad was something about Disney; why
would they care?
They think it is a Mickey Mouse country?
Derek
Windmill
2014-09-14 23:24:05 UTC
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Post by Derek F
Post by Windmill
Post by Murff
Post by Alan Smaill
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Jack Campin
20,000 Orange marchers.
Just the folks you'd trust to run a country, aren't they?
I think we have much more chance of religious extremists running the
country if we're independent.
I've heard others say that;
I don't get it myself, what makes you think that?
Wee Alex' belief that every single one of his fairy stories will come
true. Including the ones about sovereign mandates dictating EU and NATO
accession rules. And the idea that any rUK politician seen to be giving
him an easy ride wouldn't be on the dole after the next election.
If that lot isn't religious extremism I'm not sure what is.
There are some odd things going on. Such as an ad on TV which somehow
had YES popping up on several of the usual quickly changed scenes, once
even 4 YESes in a square pattern.
Coincidence? Maybe. I think the ad was something about Disney; why
would they care?
They think it is a Mickey Mouse country?
:-)

Or they want another theme park, and think an inoculation of
Salmondella will give it to them.
--
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J.R.R. Tolkien:- @ S c o t s h o m e . c o m
All that is gold does not glister / Not all who wander are lost
Jack Campin
2014-09-12 15:33:50 UTC
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Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Jack Campin
20,000 Orange marchers.
Just the folks you'd trust to run a country, aren't they?
I think we have much more chance of religious extremists running
the country if we're independent.
The Pope joined the No campaign alongside the Orangemen a few
months ago. What other bunch of extremists do you have in mind?

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Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
Richard Tobin
2014-09-12 15:40:12 UTC
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Post by Jack Campin
Post by Richard Tobin
I think we have much more chance of religious extremists running
the country if we're independent.
The Pope joined the No campaign alongside the Orangemen a few
months ago. What other bunch of extremists do you have in mind?
What does that have to do with what I said?

You seem to have mixed up their views on whether independence
is a good thing with my view on whether there is more risk of them
influencing policy if we have independence.

-- Richard
Windmill
2014-09-13 01:53:15 UTC
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Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Jack Campin
20,000 Orange marchers.
Just the folks you'd trust to run a country, aren't they?
I think we have much more chance of religious extremists running the
country if we're independent.
We can never be independent, no matter what.

But we could be bailed out by the IMF, the ECB, a consortium led by
Donald Trump, at great profit to them and loss to us.
Look at Eire.
--
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J.R.R. Tolkien:- @ S c o t s h o m e . c o m
All that is gold does not glister / Not all who wander are lost
Murff
2014-09-13 10:23:52 UTC
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Post by Windmill
But we could be bailed out by the IMF
Maybe. Last time it happened it was a major contributor to Labour's
getting booted out of office for nearly two decades.
Post by Windmill
the ECB
Only if using the Euro. And in the EU. The first would be, admittedly,
*hilarious* to watch Mr Salmond try to talk his way out of. The second is
not remotely a done deal for many years at best (Mr Salmond's interest is
not the same as that of the EU, and his "Scottish sovereign mandate" or
whatever he may call it may allow him to negotiate, but doesn't allow him
to tell the EU what to do).
Post by Windmill
Look at Eire.
It was very successful. Still could be. It fell victim to various
economic imbalances. Britain as a whole is vulnerable in much the same
way - though managed to survive better through a combination of size and
independent economic policy.

Scotland would maybe be less imbalanced - assuming a vastly smaller
financial sector if all the institutions leave - with a mixture of
industry and in the short term, oil. But it would also be very much
smaller. With its own currency it might be protected to some extent. In
the Euro, it'd be more exposed.
--
Murff...
Jeremy Nicoll - news posts
2014-09-13 11:17:09 UTC
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Post by Murff
Only if using the Euro. And in the EU. The first would be, admittedly,
*hilarious* to watch Mr Salmond try to talk his way out of....
Why do you seem to equate Mr Salmond with ongoing leadership of an
independent Scotland? Certainly he'll be it for a while, if there's a YES
vote, but do you not think that after that there'd be much fiercer
competition for that role?
--
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Email sent to my from-address will be deleted. Instead, please reply
to ***@wingsandbeaks.org.uk replacing "aaa" by "284".
Murff
2014-09-13 13:36:25 UTC
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Post by Jeremy Nicoll - news posts
Post by Murff
Only if using the Euro. And in the EU. The first would be, admittedly,
*hilarious* to watch Mr Salmond try to talk his way out of....
Why do you seem to equate Mr Salmond with ongoing leadership of an
independent Scotland? Certainly he'll be it for a while, if there's a
YES vote, but do you not think that after that there'd be much fiercer
competition for that role?
Because during that "while", that part - maybe a large part or even all -
of the things he's told people that it turns out he *can't* actually
deliver, will "out".

Bear in mind that no matter what he calls it, Mr Salmond has never had to
run a real government. Having Westminster conveniently at hand to blame
is very important to his image.

After that I suspect that there would be a Labour-dominated government.
At that point Scottish independence would be even more irrelevant because
*they'd* wreck the economy so much that the country would shortly be
empty anyway.
--
Murff...
Windmill
2014-09-14 23:20:54 UTC
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Post by Murff
Post by Jeremy Nicoll - news posts
Post by Murff
Only if using the Euro. And in the EU. The first would be, admittedly,
*hilarious* to watch Mr Salmond try to talk his way out of....
Why do you seem to equate Mr Salmond with ongoing leadership of an
independent Scotland? Certainly he'll be it for a while, if there's a
YES vote, but do you not think that after that there'd be much fiercer
competition for that role?
Because during that "while", that part - maybe a large part or even all -
of the things he's told people that it turns out he *can't* actually
deliver, will "out".
Bear in mind that no matter what he calls it, Mr Salmond has never had to
run a real government. Having Westminster conveniently at hand to blame
is very important to his image.
After that I suspect that there would be a Labour-dominated government.
At that point Scottish independence would be even more irrelevant because
*they'd* wreck the economy so much that the country would shortly be
empty anyway.
Ebola might achieve that regardless of who's in power.
--
Windmill, ***@NoneHome.com Use t m i l l
J.R.R. Tolkien:- @ S c o t s h o m e . c o m
All that is gold does not glister / Not all who wander are lost
Windmill
2014-09-14 23:19:25 UTC
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Post by Jeremy Nicoll - news posts
Post by Murff
Only if using the Euro. And in the EU. The first would be, admittedly,
*hilarious* to watch Mr Salmond try to talk his way out of....
Why do you seem to equate Mr Salmond with ongoing leadership of an
independent Scotland? Certainly he'll be it for a while, if there's a YES
vote, but do you not think that after that there'd be much fiercer
competition for that role?
What bothers me is the thought that he or his successor will have to
position himself to the left of Labour.
To me it seems obvious that there's a proper balance - no privatised
prisons which motivate the operators to create more criminals, but no
all-powerful state with its finger in every pie.
But balance is not what I think we'll get from Salmond.
In fact I can imagine increasingly drastic and draconian measures if in
a nominally independent Scotland things went pear-shaped.
--
Windmill, ***@NoneHome.com Use t m i l l
J.R.R. Tolkien:- @ S c o t s h o m e . c o m
All that is gold does not glister / Not all who wander are lost
Windmill
2014-09-14 23:03:58 UTC
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Post by Murff
Post by Windmill
But we could be bailed out by the IMF
Maybe. Last time it happened it was a major contributor to Labour's
getting booted out of office for nearly two decades.
Post by Windmill
the ECB
Only if using the Euro. And in the EU. The first would be, admittedly,
*hilarious* to watch Mr Salmond try to talk his way out of. The second is
not remotely a done deal for many years at best (Mr Salmond's interest is
not the same as that of the EU, and his "Scottish sovereign mandate" or
whatever he may call it may allow him to negotiate, but doesn't allow him
to tell the EU what to do).
Post by Windmill
Look at Eire.
It was very successful. Still could be. It fell victim to various
economic imbalances. Britain as a whole is vulnerable in much the same
way - though managed to survive better through a combination of size and
independent economic policy.
Scotland would maybe be less imbalanced - assuming a vastly smaller
financial sector if all the institutions leave - with a mixture of
industry and in the short term, oil. But it would also be very much
smaller. With its own currency it might be protected to some extent. In
the Euro, it'd be more exposed.
'Yes' voters, like 'No' voters, want what's best for Scotland so long
as it doesn't harm their pensions/savings/property/mortgage/income.
But in the absence of a time machine, who can know?

We might be worrying about the wrong things.

If Putin were to invade Europe, would it be better to be part of the
UK, or separate (and maybe easily invaded to provide a bridgehead for
an attack on England - and then possibly attacked by the English, as
a matter of necessary self defence).

Ebola cases are doubling every month; exponential growth, e to the x
where x is measured in units of about 6 weeks in size.

2000 deaths out of 4000 cases today translates to 8 million cases and
4 million deaths a year from now.
Then 16 billion cases and 8 billion deaths in two years time (but of
course the rate of growth would slow when the world population halved).
More would then die of starvation, though weakened bodies might be
susceptible to re-infection.

Far from containing it, they're beginning to say it's out of control.
Don't scare the horses was all very well - but the stable's on fire.

The one thing you can say about the future is that it's unpredictable.

(Who was it who said 'Events, dear boy, events' ?)
--
Windmill, ***@NoneHome.com Use t m i l l
J.R.R. Tolkien:- @ S c o t s h o m e . c o m
All that is gold does not glister / Not all who wander are lost
Windmill
2014-09-13 05:41:56 UTC
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Post by Jack Campin
Fred the Shred's bank.
The folks who brought you the Deepwater Horizon spill.
20,000 Orange marchers.
Just the folks you'd trust to run a country, aren't they?
It's win-win as far as Alex is concerned. Either he gets to be
primary minister, or he remains secondary minister, and though he might
not like the latter, he'll still get many more powers. Westminster has
promised that. But why did they allow a referendum in the first place?
It's almost as though Dave and Alex had agreed some kind of deal.
--
Windmill, ***@NoneHome.com Use t m i l l
J.R.R. Tolkien:- @ S c o t s h o m e . c o m
All that is gold does not glister / Not all who wander are lost
Murff
2014-09-13 10:15:00 UTC
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It's win-win as far as Alex is concerned. Either he gets to be primary
minister, or he remains secondary minister, and though he might not like
the latter, he'll still get many more powers. Westminster has promised
that. But why did they allow a referendum in the first place? It's
almost as though Dave and Alex had agreed some kind of deal.
Because they're politicians - and it offered potential short-term benefit
to both. Without Scottish votes, a Tory party weakened by UKIP and its
own history would have an advantage in rUK. Until it became unhideably
obvious that Mr Salmond can't actually deliver on his promises, he could
expect a "honeymoon" period. And Mr Cameron to some extent wins both
ways, too, as some sort of "saviour of the Union".

That a built-in anti-European majority in rUK, or a Scotland that has
cast itself adrift is to the long-term disadvantage to both sides -
irrespective of the in many ways undesirable current state of the Union -
isn't a problem for either of them. Because they'll both be retired on
substantial pensions by the time it all comes off the rails.
--
Murff...
Windmill
2014-09-14 22:37:15 UTC
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Post by Murff
It's win-win as far as Alex is concerned. Either he gets to be primary
minister, or he remains secondary minister, and though he might not like
the latter, he'll still get many more powers. Westminster has promised
that. But why did they allow a referendum in the first place? It's
almost as though Dave and Alex had agreed some kind of deal.
Because they're politicians - and it offered potential short-term benefit
to both. Without Scottish votes, a Tory party weakened by UKIP and its
own history would have an advantage in rUK. Until it became unhideably
obvious that Mr Salmond can't actually deliver on his promises, he could
expect a "honeymoon" period. And Mr Cameron to some extent wins both
ways, too, as some sort of "saviour of the Union".
Wins with UKIP-leaning Tories, maybe.
Post by Murff
That a built-in anti-European majority in rUK, or a Scotland that has
cast itself adrift is to the long-term disadvantage to both sides -
irrespective of the in many ways undesirable current state of the Union -
isn't a problem for either of them. Because they'll both be retired on
substantial pensions by the time it all comes off the rails.
Or be well on the way to becoming billionaires. Like Blair.
--
Windmill, ***@NoneHome.com Use t m i l l
J.R.R. Tolkien:- @ S c o t s h o m e . c o m
All that is gold does not glister / Not all who wander are lost
Windmill
2014-09-13 05:56:35 UTC
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Post by Jack Campin
Fred the Shred's bank.
The folks who brought you the Deepwater Horizon spill.
20,000 Orange marchers.
Just the folks you'd trust to run a country, aren't they?
It's win-win as far as Alex is concerned. Either he gets to be
primary minister, or he remains secondary minister, and though he might
not like the latter, he'll still get many more powers. Westminster has
promised that. But why did they allow a referendum in the first place?
It's almost as though Dave and Alex had agreed some kind of deal.
--
Windmill, ***@NoneHome.com Use t m i l l
J.R.R. Tolkien:- @ S c o t s h o m e . c o m
All that is gold does not glister / Not all who wander are lost
August West
2014-09-13 08:33:56 UTC
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Post by Windmill
It's win-win as far as Alex is concerned. Either he gets to be
primary minister, or he remains secondary minister, and though he might
not like the latter, he'll still get many more powers. Westminster has
promised that.
Westminster has done no such thing. The parties have promised vague
things, but nothing concrete. And do you really believe that MPs & the
Lords will actually pass a bill granting Scotland more powers? I
seriously doubt it.
--
I'll search the world over for my angel in black
Richard Tobin
2014-09-13 11:24:37 UTC
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Post by August West
Westminster has done no such thing. The parties have promised vague
things, but nothing concrete. And do you really believe that MPs & the
Lords will actually pass a bill granting Scotland more powers? I
seriously doubt it.
I think that if Scotland had voted no after such powers had been
promised, for them to then refuse it would provoke if not a revolution
then at least the certainty of independence within a few years.

And if the Lords blocked it after the Commons has passed it, it would
be the end for them.

-- Richard
Murff
2014-09-14 20:27:45 UTC
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Post by Richard Tobin
I think that if Scotland had voted no after such powers had been
promised, for them to then refuse it would provoke if not a revolution
then at least the certainty of independence within a few years.
What would be an interesting outcome would be a narrow "Yes" (and hence a
flimsy "mandate"), followed by an inability for Mr Salmond to deliver on
his claims before the next election in Scotland... and the SNP being
replaced in Holyrood with a significant Labour majority.

Lots of potential for very entertaining constitutional chaos.
--
Murff...
Jack Campin
2014-09-14 23:05:19 UTC
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Post by Murff
What would be an interesting outcome would be a narrow "Yes" (and hence a
flimsy "mandate"), followed by an inability for Mr Salmond to deliver on
his claims before the next election in Scotland... and the SNP being
replaced in Holyrood with a significant Labour majority.
That's probably what a large proportion of YES voters expect to happen
and it's the reason they'll be voting that way.

They're hardly likely to get a Labour government with any real power
by voting the other way, are they?

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Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
Murff
2014-09-14 23:29:00 UTC
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Post by Jack Campin
Post by Murff
What would be an interesting outcome would be a narrow "Yes" (and hence
a flimsy "mandate"), followed by an inability for Mr Salmond to deliver
on his claims before the next election in Scotland... and the SNP being
replaced in Holyrood with a significant Labour majority.
That's probably what a large proportion of YES voters expect to happen
and it's the reason they'll be voting that way.
They're hardly likely to get a Labour government with any real power by
voting the other way, are they?
Real power ? What was not real about the power the last Labour
government had ? And on the subject of voting, the last Labour
government had enough power to make Mr Brown Prime Minister without the
inconvenience of any of those pesky election things.

It still leaves those "yes" voters with the problem that the scenario
comes about because the stories that in Mr Salmond's rhetoric, make
independence work, don't actually come true.
--
Murff...
Windmill
2014-09-14 23:09:04 UTC
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Post by August West
Post by Windmill
It's win-win as far as Alex is concerned. Either he gets to be
primary minister, or he remains secondary minister, and though he might
not like the latter, he'll still get many more powers. Westminster has
promised that.
Westminster has done no such thing. The parties have promised vague
things, but nothing concrete. And do you really believe that MPs & the
Lords will actually pass a bill granting Scotland more powers? I
seriously doubt it.
I'm sure that their lips are moving, and as most are lawyers (some
might claim 'failed lawyers') they're expert at reinterpreting what
they or anyone else said, sometimes in surprising ways.
But unless Ebola gives them a reason to shelve everything, they'll have
to make concessions.
--
Windmill, ***@NoneHome.com Use t m i l l
J.R.R. Tolkien:- @ S c o t s h o m e . c o m
All that is gold does not glister / Not all who wander are lost
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