Discussion:
Museum in JCMB?
(too old to reply)
David McKenzie
2015-12-08 14:00:03 UTC
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Well, I haven't been on ed.general for a decade or so, but glad to see
it's still here! Jack Campin and Sam Wilson, I remember your names. Sam
- you were at the ERCC back in the day, weren't you?

I had a wee wander round the JCMB the other day to see if I could see
anything familiar compared to when I was a student there in the 80s. I
see the computer terminal room (number 3210) is still there, but there
are fewer Hazeltine Esprits and BBC Micros there these days.

One thing I was sorry to see had disappeared was the wee museum on the
first floor. A museum of old electronic communications hardware, I think
it was. Does anyone know what happened to it? Has it been rehomed
somewhere else, or is it just plain gone?

Cheers,
Dave
Jack Campin
2015-12-09 01:47:56 UTC
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Post by David McKenzie
I had a wee wander round the JCMB the other day to see if I could see
anything familiar compared to when I was a student there in the 80s. I
see the computer terminal room (number 3210) is still there, but there
are fewer Hazeltine Esprits and BBC Micros there these days.
One thing I was sorry to see had disappeared was the wee museum on the
first floor. A museum of old electronic communications hardware, I think
it was. Does anyone know what happened to it? Has it been rehomed
somewhere else, or is it just plain gone?
The JCMB seems prone to bouts of iconoclasm. There was a professor
in the maths department who made a bunch of *knitted* topological
models. There was nothing else like them on the planet, and how
much space can a few woolly manifolds take up? - but they dumped
them anyway.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
Julian Bradfield
2015-12-09 11:39:37 UTC
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On 2015-12-09, Jack Campin <***@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:

[ OP's name deleted by Jack ]
Post by Jack Campin
Post by David McKenzie
I had a wee wander round the JCMB the other day to see if I could see
anything familiar compared to when I was a student there in the 80s. I
see the computer terminal room (number 3210) is still there, but there
are fewer Hazeltine Esprits and BBC Micros there these days.
One thing I was sorry to see had disappeared was the wee museum on the
first floor. A museum of old electronic communications hardware, I think
it was. Does anyone know what happened to it? Has it been rehomed
somewhere else, or is it just plain gone?
That stuff belonged to Computer Science, and since Computer Science
(as it was) is no longer in JCMB, it's not surprising the CS exhibit
went away too. I don't know what we did with it, but I can find out if
anybody wants to know.
Post by Jack Campin
The JCMB seems prone to bouts of iconoclasm. There was a professor
in the maths department who made a bunch of *knitted* topological
models. There was nothing else like them on the planet, and how
much space can a few woolly manifolds take up? - but they dumped
them anyway.
Try switching off your Private Eye Piloti paranoia.
Firstly, topological knitting is (relatively) a popular activity
through the mathematical world - you can find someone who does it in
most major countries, and if you want to do it yourself, there are
plenty of patterns online.
Secondly, the Edinburgh collection of topological knitting (still
being supplemented by my friend Julia Collins and others) is now part
of the outreach kit, and spends its time going round schools, summer
schools, public lectures, and other places where it might actually
enthuse people about mathematics, rather than merely amuse people who
are already doing it.
Sam Wilson
2015-12-09 13:00:56 UTC
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Post by Julian Bradfield
[ OP's name deleted by Jack ]
Post by Jack Campin
Post by David McKenzie
I had a wee wander round the JCMB the other day to see if I could see
anything familiar compared to when I was a student there in the 80s. I
see the computer terminal room (number 3210) is still there, but there
are fewer Hazeltine Esprits and BBC Micros there these days.
One thing I was sorry to see had disappeared was the wee museum on the
first floor. A museum of old electronic communications hardware, I think
it was. Does anyone know what happened to it? Has it been rehomed
somewhere else, or is it just plain gone?
That stuff belonged to Computer Science, and since Computer Science
(as it was) is no longer in JCMB, it's not surprising the CS exhibit
went away too. I don't know what we did with it, but I can find out if
anybody wants to know.
I think there are two separate things here. There was the CS display in
front of the lifts on level 2, including a comparison of disk
drives/platters. There was also an EE(?) museum of communications at
the head of the stairs on level 3. I don't know what happened to either
of those, but a colleague has a random collection of old comms kit (BT
patch panel, acoustic coupler, Webster Multigate etc etc) in his office,
and various people have some of the old 36"-ish EMAS fixed disk platters
around the place, like one of the ones in the CS display, the one that
had iron filings scattered on it so you could see the individual tracks.
Post by Julian Bradfield
Post by Jack Campin
The JCMB seems prone to bouts of iconoclasm. There was a professor
in the maths department who made a bunch of *knitted* topological
models. There was nothing else like them on the planet, and how
much space can a few woolly manifolds take up? - but they dumped
them anyway.
Try switching off your Private Eye Piloti paranoia.
Firstly, topological knitting is (relatively) a popular activity
through the mathematical world - you can find someone who does it in
most major countries, and if you want to do it yourself, there are
plenty of patterns online.
Secondly, the Edinburgh collection of topological knitting (still
being supplemented by my friend Julia Collins and others) is now part
of the outreach kit, and spends its time going round schools, summer
schools, public lectures, and other places where it might actually
enthuse people about mathematics, rather than merely amuse people who
are already doing it.
Hooray! The JCMB does have a simulation of a Menger sponge on display
at the moment. The second photo here is taken from eye level at the
completed object.

<https://www.dropbox.com/sc/pi57wt2lqrvq15i/AAByuLGq6jQ-2pLoADWsMCqLa>

Sam
--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
August West
2015-12-09 16:24:03 UTC
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Post by Sam Wilson
various people have some of the old 36"-ish EMAS fixed disk platters
I still miss EMAS. (Less so ECCE and IMP. Although the latter did have
its points.) It really should stand higher in CompSci history than it
does.
--
sordid, but exciting
Murff
2015-12-09 20:42:47 UTC
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Post by August West
Post by Sam Wilson
various people have some of the old 36"-ish EMAS fixed disk platters
I still miss EMAS. (Less so ECCE and IMP. Although the latter did have
its points.) It really should stand higher in CompSci history than it
does.
Yup, I miss EMAS, too. SWMBO still has (I think) a Tardis T-shirt. And
3210 (occasional visitor when the terminal room in the Chemistry building
was full).
--
Murff...
Richard Tobin
2015-12-09 20:56:56 UTC
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Post by Murff
Yup, I miss EMAS, too.
There's a free IBM/370 emulator called "Hercules" which might run
EMAS-3, the source code for which is here:

http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/emas/emas3/

but you'd have to be insane to try it.

-- Richard
August West
2015-12-09 21:06:06 UTC
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Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Murff
Yup, I miss EMAS, too.
There's a free IBM/370 emulator called "Hercules" which might run
http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/emas/emas3/
but you'd have to be insane to try it.
That sounds like a challenge.
--
We're middle-class, we're middle-aged
Claudio Calvelli
2015-12-09 21:36:27 UTC
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Post by Richard Tobin
There's a free IBM/370 emulator called "Hercules" which might run
http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/emas/emas3/
but you'd have to be insane to try it.
Last time I used Hercules, 16 years ago, it was faster than the
original 370, so I'm assuming that to get the proper experience you
need to go and find something old and slow enough :-) Or perhaps run
it on an underclocked Raspberry PI.

(And BTW, when I was sentenced to JCMB there was a locked cupboard in
the office, when we found the right key it turned out to contain boards
from a PDP-6. Nobody seemed to know where they came from, and sorry
I have no idea what happened to them, it was over 20 years ago...)

C
Sam Wilson
2015-12-10 17:41:33 UTC
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Post by Claudio Calvelli
Post by Richard Tobin
There's a free IBM/370 emulator called "Hercules" which might run
http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/emas/emas3/
but you'd have to be insane to try it.
Last time I used Hercules, 16 years ago, it was faster than the
original 370, so I'm assuming that to get the proper experience you
need to go and find something old and slow enough :-) Or perhaps run
it on an underclocked Raspberry PI.
With a dumb terminal attached to a USB interface?
Post by Claudio Calvelli
(And BTW, when I was sentenced to JCMB there was a locked cupboard in
the office, when we found the right key it turned out to contain boards
from a PDP-6. Nobody seemed to know where they came from, and sorry
I have no idea what happened to them, it was over 20 years ago...)
Interesting. I don't remember there being a PDP-6. There was a DEC-10
for a while that belonged to the SERC, numerous PDP-11s and PDP-8s and
one PDP-15 (I think) which ran a thing called IGLU, which stood for
"Interactive Graphics for Lots of Users* [footnote *: where Lots Of =
2]".

Sam
--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
Jack Campin
2015-12-11 00:31:17 UTC
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Post by Claudio Calvelli
Post by Richard Tobin
There's a free IBM/370 emulator called "Hercules" which might run
http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/emas/emas3/
but you'd have to be insane to try it.
Last time I used Hercules, 16 years ago, it was faster than the
original 370, so I'm assuming that to get the proper experience you
need to go and find something old and slow enough :-) Or perhaps run
it on an underclocked Raspberry PI.
I thought EMAS ran on ICL mainframes?

VME on a Raspberry Pi would be kinda entertaining. (You'd probably
want the Pi to simulate 3900-series microcode to make it authentically
slow and flaky).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
Richard Tobin
2015-12-11 00:45:59 UTC
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Post by Jack Campin
Post by Claudio Calvelli
Post by Richard Tobin
There's a free IBM/370 emulator called "Hercules" which might run
http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/emas/emas3/
but you'd have to be insane to try it.
Last time I used Hercules, 16 years ago, it was faster than the
original 370, so I'm assuming that to get the proper experience you
need to go and find something old and slow enough :-) Or perhaps run
it on an underclocked Raspberry PI.
I thought EMAS ran on ICL mainframes?
Also IBM ones.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Multiple_Access_System

-- Richard
August West
2015-12-11 09:52:14 UTC
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Post by Jack Campin
Post by Claudio Calvelli
Post by Richard Tobin
There's a free IBM/370 emulator called "Hercules" which might run
http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/emas/emas3/
but you'd have to be insane to try it.
Last time I used Hercules, 16 years ago, it was faster than the
original 370, so I'm assuming that to get the proper experience you
need to go and find something old and slow enough :-) Or perhaps run
it on an underclocked Raspberry PI.
I thought EMAS ran on ICL mainframes?
Yes, and. Portability was one of its major advances.
--
don't wanna be treated this way
Sam Wilson
2015-12-10 17:20:31 UTC
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Post by August West
Post by Sam Wilson
various people have some of the old 36"-ish EMAS fixed disk platters
I still miss EMAS. (Less so ECCE and IMP. Although the latter did have
its points.) It really should stand higher in CompSci history than it
does.
Moi aussi. I got used to the EMAS EDIT command after starting with ECCE
(actually I started with IMP on punched cards on the IBM MVS or even MVT
service, but that was a brief acquaintance). First system syndrome...

Sam
--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
c***@googlemail.com
2016-08-27 19:06:30 UTC
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Post by Sam Wilson
Moi aussi. I got used to the EMAS EDIT command after starting with ECCE
(actually I started with IMP on punched cards on the IBM MVS or even MVT
service, but that was a brief acquaintance). First system syndrome...
Hm! Strangely, I've just been using a simple editor I wrote in Icon, modeled
on ECCE, to do a job which is particularly suited to an old-fashioned context
editor like ECCE. Does anyone out there have an ECCE implementation which will
run on PCs? My own implementation is incomplete and I don't have the moral
fibre to take up further development...

Re EMAS: I seem to remember writing, as a joke a very simple EMAS emulator
in Icon when the decision was made to move from EMAS to Unix. It gave one or
two folks a bit of a fright - they were feart that I would peddle this piece
of junk ('cos that's what it was!) amongst the EMAS die-hards

Roger Hare

(Yes, that Roger Hare, for the very few of you that will remember him - this
is my first post to ed.general since retiring in 2003 - or was it 2004...)
Sam Wilson
2016-08-29 09:41:50 UTC
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Post by c***@googlemail.com
Post by Sam Wilson
Moi aussi. I got used to the EMAS EDIT command after starting with ECCE
(actually I started with IMP on punched cards on the IBM MVS or even MVT
service, but that was a brief acquaintance). First system syndrome...
Hm! Strangely, I've just been using a simple editor I wrote in Icon, modeled
on ECCE, to do a job which is particularly suited to an old-fashioned context
editor like ECCE. Does anyone out there have an ECCE implementation which will
run on PCs? My own implementation is incomplete and I don't have the moral
fibre to take up further development...
Re EMAS: I seem to remember writing, as a joke a very simple EMAS emulator
in Icon when the decision was made to move from EMAS to Unix. It gave one or
two folks a bit of a fright - they were feart that I would peddle this piece
of junk ('cos that's what it was!) amongst the EMAS die-hards
Roger Hare
(Yes, that Roger Hare, for the very few of you that will remember him - this
is my first post to ed.general since retiring in 2003 - or was it 2004...)
Hi Roger! How are you doing?

(Sorry, no info on ECCE, but there must still be people out there with
source. I once wrote an MS-DOS emulator for EMAS. Whatever you typed
it responded with "BDOS Error on A:".)

Sam
--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
Sam Wilson
2016-08-29 10:41:26 UTC
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In article
Post by c***@googlemail.com
Post by Sam Wilson
Moi aussi. I got used to the EMAS EDIT command after starting with ECCE
(actually I started with IMP on punched cards on the IBM MVS or even MVT
service, but that was a brief acquaintance). First system syndrome...
Hm! Strangely, I've just been using a simple editor I wrote in Icon, modeled
on ECCE, to do a job which is particularly suited to an old-fashioned context
editor like ECCE. Does anyone out there have an ECCE implementation which will
run on PCs? My own implementation is incomplete and I don't have the moral
fibre to take up further development...
You got a compiler?

<https://sourceforge.net/projects/ecce/>

Sam
--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
August West
2016-08-29 11:32:05 UTC
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Post by Sam Wilson
(Sorry, no info on ECCE, but there must still be people out there with
source.
http://www.texteditors.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Ecce
--
It's only inches on the reel-to-reel
Sam Wilson
2016-08-29 14:59:21 UTC
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Post by August West
Post by Sam Wilson
(Sorry, no info on ECCE, but there must still be people out there with
source.
http://www.texteditors.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Ecce
Cool!

Sam (my first editor!)
--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
August West
2016-08-29 17:10:51 UTC
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Post by Sam Wilson
Post by August West
Post by Sam Wilson
(Sorry, no info on ECCE, but there must still be people out there with
source.
http://www.texteditors.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Ecce
Cool!
Sam (my first editor!)
And mine. (Hence my custom "User-Agent:" field, above!)
--
Wealden clay and Severn mud
Sam Wilson
2016-08-30 12:10:07 UTC
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Post by August West
Post by Sam Wilson
Post by August West
Post by Sam Wilson
(Sorry, no info on ECCE, but there must still be people out there with
source.
http://www.texteditors.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Ecce
Cool!
Sam (my first editor!)
And mine. (Hence my custom "User-Agent:" field, above!)
Ah yes, now that I know what to look for!

Sam
--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
Roger Hare
2016-08-29 18:10:29 UTC
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Post by Sam Wilson
Hi Roger! How are you doing?
Sam, thank you for the reply. How are you?! Surely not still beavering away
at EUCS (or whatever it's called this week)?!

I'm doing fine - just moved back to God's country (Manchester...) after
12 years living in the West Country - sailing, (some) rowing, having a (mild)
heart attack, starting to learn the concertina (as at least one other
regular contributor to ed.general can testify!), etc...
Post by Sam Wilson
You got a compiler?
Not yet, but the presence of a C source file makes me think I might try and
find a compiler and try and get the beast up and running. 'Twas always a good
editor, which was why I got a sort of arf-arsed version going as part of my
teaching myself a little computer science. I would try and develop the Icon(*)
version but I'm having difficulty getting the full Icon system going - I can
get an executable running but don't seem to be able to modify the source and
re-compile - all very strange...

Thank you for your input.

Best wishes to all at Edinburgh past and present.

Roger

(*) Icon - I was probably the only person in Auld Reekie who used this
powerful language developed by the late Ralph Griswold (Snobol and other
languages) and his team at Arizona. Fast, flexible interpreted language,
now part of the Unicon Project - see:
http://unicon.sourceforge.net/ and:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/unicon/files/ and:
http://www.cs.arizona.edu/icon/
Sam Wilson
2016-08-30 12:14:46 UTC
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Post by Roger Hare
Post by Sam Wilson
Hi Roger! How are you doing?
Sam, thank you for the reply. How are you?! Surely not still beavering away
at EUCS (or whatever it's called this week)?!
Yep. We're now Information Services (and have been for some time) -
Library, EUCS, MIS, AV all together in one big [fill in the rest].
Post by Roger Hare
I'm doing fine - just moved back to God's country (Manchester...) after
12 years living in the West Country - sailing, (some) rowing, having a (mild)
heart attack, starting to learn the concertina (as at least one other
regular contributor to ed.general can testify!), etc...
Good oh!
Post by Roger Hare
Post by Sam Wilson
You got a compiler?
Not yet, but the presence of a C source file makes me think I might try and
find a compiler and try and get the beast up and running. 'Twas always a good
editor, which was why I got a sort of arf-arsed version going as part of my
teaching myself a little computer science. I would try and develop the Icon(*)
version but I'm having difficulty getting the full Icon system going - I can
get an executable running but don't seem to be able to modify the source and
re-compile - all very strange...
FWIW ecce.c from SourceForge compiles and runs perfectly well on a Mac
with no modifications, though some warnings.
Post by Roger Hare
Thank you for your input.
Best wishes to all at Edinburgh past and present.
And to you. There have been lots of retirements in the fairly recent
past so I'm not sure who else here will remember you - I'll ask around.
Post by Roger Hare
(*) Icon - I was probably the only person in Auld Reekie who used this
powerful language developed by the late Ralph Griswold (Snobol and other
languages) and his team at Arizona. Fast, flexible interpreted language,
http://www.cs.arizona.edu/icon/
Ah, now there you're wrong. Eddie Corns was also an enthusiastic Icon
user, but has now moved on to languages new. He's also still here.
I'll tell him you called.

Sam
--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
The Real Doctor
2015-12-11 11:38:32 UTC
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Post by Julian Bradfield
Firstly, topological knitting is (relatively) a popular activity
through the mathematical world - you can find someone who does it in
most major countries, and if you want to do it yourself, there are
plenty of patterns online.
I have a colleague with a klein bottle pullover. He has not yet worked
out how to put it on.

Ian
Richard Tobin
2015-12-11 13:15:25 UTC
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Post by The Real Doctor
I have a colleague with a klein bottle pullover. He has not yet worked
out how to put it on.
That of course will only be the start of his problems.

-- Richard
Jon Fairbairn
2015-12-13 09:56:41 UTC
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Post by Richard Tobin
Post by The Real Doctor
I have a colleague with a klein bottle pullover. He has not yet worked
out how to put it on.
That of course will only be the start of his problems.
Surely, since its inside is the same as its outside, he’s
already in it?
Sam Wilson
2015-12-09 12:48:33 UTC
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Post by David McKenzie
Well, I haven't been on ed.general for a decade or so, but glad to see
it's still here! Jack Campin and Sam Wilson, I remember your names. Sam
- you were at the ERCC back in the day, weren't you?
I may technically have been for a few days. It changed its name to EUCS
at about the time I arrived. It's now IS (oops!) and, yes, I'm still
here.
Post by David McKenzie
I had a wee wander round the JCMB the other day to see if I could see
anything familiar compared to when I was a student there in the 80s. I
see the computer terminal room (number 3210) is still there, but there
are fewer Hazeltine Esprits and BBC Micros there these days.
I hate to think how many generations of kit have been through that room
since then. It was full of X terminals for a while.
Post by David McKenzie
One thing I was sorry to see had disappeared was the wee museum on the
first floor. A museum of old electronic communications hardware, I think
it was. Does anyone know what happened to it? Has it been rehomed
somewhere else, or is it just plain gone?
I'll comment on this in reply to Julian Bradfield's post.

Sam
--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
Brian Howie
2015-12-09 13:21:05 UTC
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Post by David McKenzie
Well, I haven't been on ed.general for a decade or so, but glad to see
it's still here! Jack Campin and Sam Wilson, I remember your names. Sam
- you were at the ERCC back in the day, weren't you?
I had a wee wander round the JCMB the other day to see if I could see
anything familiar compared to when I was a student there in the 80s. I
see the computer terminal room (number 3210) is still there, but there
are fewer Hazeltine Esprits and BBC Micros there these days.
One thing I was sorry to see had disappeared was the wee museum on the
first floor. A museum of old electronic communications hardware, I
think it was. Does anyone know what happened to it? Has it been rehomed
somewhere else, or is it just plain gone?
It's now at the Museum of Communications at Burntisland; It was at
Bo'ness for a while. Well worth a visit. I knew Harry Mathews who looked
after it. I thought it was in the EE building ?

Http://mocft.co.uk/

http://mocft.co.uk/about-us/before-the-foundation/



Brian
--
Brian Howie
Sam Wilson
2015-12-09 16:16:25 UTC
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Post by Brian Howie
Post by David McKenzie
Well, I haven't been on ed.general for a decade or so, but glad to see
it's still here! Jack Campin and Sam Wilson, I remember your names. Sam
- you were at the ERCC back in the day, weren't you?
I had a wee wander round the JCMB the other day to see if I could see
anything familiar compared to when I was a student there in the 80s. I
see the computer terminal room (number 3210) is still there, but there
are fewer Hazeltine Esprits and BBC Micros there these days.
One thing I was sorry to see had disappeared was the wee museum on the
first floor. A museum of old electronic communications hardware, I
think it was. Does anyone know what happened to it? Has it been rehomed
somewhere else, or is it just plain gone?
It's now at the Museum of Communications at Burntisland; It was at
Bo'ness for a while. Well worth a visit. I knew Harry Mathews who looked
after it. I thought it was in the EE building ?
Http://mocft.co.uk/
http://mocft.co.uk/about-us/before-the-foundation/
That site has photos of the museum in JCMB.

Sam
--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
David McKenzie
2015-12-23 09:03:11 UTC
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Post by Brian Howie
It's now at the Museum of Communications at Burntisland; It was at
Bo'ness for a while. Well worth a visit. I knew Harry Mathews who looked
after it. I thought it was in the EE building ?
Http://mocft.co.uk/
http://mocft.co.uk/about-us/before-the-foundation/
Brilliant, thanks Brian - and to all. The Museum of Communication in
Fife is on my bucket list to go and visit, but I've not got there yet
because I'm 100% sure that none of the rest of the family would want to
go with me! I'll look out for that photo of the museum's old home at
JCMB when I do make it there.

Quite staggering how things have come on since the days of EMAS. I
wonder if somebody with far too much time on their hands could really
make it run in emulation on a Raspberry Pi. I would be one of the very,
very, very small subset of humanity who would both care and be impressed!

Cheers,
Dave
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